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World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
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REVIEW
French Colourcoats
Merlin
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Posted: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 08:38 AM UTC


Here's a look at White Ensign Models' range of Armée de L'Air enamels.

Link to Item

If you have comments or questions please post them here.

Thanks!
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 03:34 PM UTC
Dumb Grumpy Question Time!
Would any of these be appropriate for French Armor?
Merlin
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Posted: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 08:21 PM UTC
Hi Dave

I'm afraid the simple answer is that I don't know. The Vitocharts reference chart that WEM matched the paints to is devoted to aviation colours, and neither it nor the IPMS guide offer any cross links to armour. Maybe John Snyder of WEM can help on this one - otherwise, if you have some FS equivalents for French armour colours, I'll see if any are close to the Armée de L'Air colours (or paints from other Colourcoat sets that I have).

All the best

Rowan
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 12:26 AM UTC
Thanks Rowan.
Just wishful thinking of an easier softer way of finding colors.
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Posted: Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 01:17 AM UTC
Hi Both,

Rowan first: we used the Vitocharts "Armée de l’Air – Aéronavale – Nuancier des couleurs de l’aviation Française 1900-1945 “, loaned to us by Jacques Druel of L'Arsenal. I did a bit of colour analysis magic on them, based on my historic preservation training, before we did the matching which may be why our results differ a bit from your chart.

Dave second: We're looking into French armour colours now. Watch this space....
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 02:12 AM UTC
Very good John, I will.
kenner
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Posted: Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 09:55 AM UTC
Wow! It's enough to get me to drag some of those French WW2 kits out of my stash.
(and maybe add a few more )

I used to think of White Ensign primarily as a ship modeller's company but between their recent photo etch releases (Sunderland or Halifax anyone?) and their ever increasing range of paints my wish list just keeps getting longer ("I'll take one of everything please" )
flypaper
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Posted: Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 06:24 AM UTC
I really can't comment on the shades since I dont own a set, but, to say that information is scarce is, well, strange. For the last few years more information on French camo colors has come to light then in the past 40 years. Starting with the magazines "Le Fana de l'Aviation" muti-part series on French camo and colors, "Replic" multi-part series, Aero Editions Camouflage and Markings No.1 French Air Force 1938-1945, 70 pages of color and camo information WITH color chip chart!, DTU publishing house "Dewoitine D-520" 98 pages with a 10 pages section devoted to colors and camo used on the D520 alone, Wing Masters "l'Armee de l'Air 1939-1942", which also had a deicated section on French colors and camo. French IPMS color chart, with FS numbers and mixes using available paints.On the web is "Dons Colors" who produces JPS Model colors in Germany. etc etc.
With all this out there I find it strange that White Ensign ended up using a booklet of chips published in Italy over 35 years ago, and only that.
From what I can see of the colors in the stack of 14 they only did a so-so job of matching the cjips in the Vitochart booklet,anyway. I mean why use a reference at all if your going to alter the end results as stated in a post above?
As an aside, if they had done any research they would have found that the "Vert" that is so bright to them was meant to be mixed with "khaki" to produce a green that was more dull and used as the "vert" camo color.
Merlin
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Posted: Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 08:24 AM UTC
Hi Flypaper

Wow! Thanks for the heads up on the extra info! As you'll have guessed from my review, I've never come across any of those sources in the UK. I'll certainly keep an eye out for them!

One of the things I particularly like about White Ensign is their policy of revising their Colourcoats as up to date information appears, so the mixes aren't "set in stone" as is the case with some other paint manufacturers. A case in point is their release of some revised RLM paints to reflect the latest research by K.A. Merrick. I'll make sure John Snyder is aware of your suggestions.

Thanks again and all the best

Rowan
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:20 AM UTC
Hello Flypaper,

Well, I'll have a check with my French sources. In the meantime, as regards your insinuation of altering the Vitochart colours, what I did was take steps to correct them. I've got 35 years university and professional training and experience in historic preservation/historic paint analysis/historic colour matching; it's what I've done for a living. Do the terms "linseed oil darkening" or "UV bleaching" mean anything to you? I'll compare credentials any day.... ;^)
Holdfast
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:40 AM UTC
Personally speaking I have absolute faith in the colour matching of WEM colourcoats and find them to be exceptional paints
Any chance of paints for French air force roundels and insignia? French markings are a natural progression for my "Miracle Masks" but I haven't a clue as to what the proper colours were, nor the sizes of the roundels.
Mal
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 01:47 AM UTC
Hi Mal,

"Watch this space...." ;^)
flypaper
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 05:25 AM UTC
First question, Why would you need to "correct" them? If they are your reference and you are basing your end results on them why "correct" anything? And yes UV blah blah, and linseed oil blah blah do mean something to me, but I don't see what they have to do with the Vitocharts? I have a copy of the same chart, the colors have not faded or shifted to any great degree since I got it 35 years ago, if I wanted to I can go down to my local paint store have them read it and have gallons of the colors made up for me, they match and mix.....

For those who don't have the Vitochart, on the back of it they give mixing formulas for the 36 color chips, they give them for all the popular brands of paints in use at that time,many of which are still in production today, Humbrol-Pactra-Testors-Revell-Molak and Heller. My guess ( and its only a guess) is that your research ended there.

To my fellow modelers please check out the following two sites.

http://www.jpsmodell.de/main_e.htm

Use the above site to check out the color chips of most of the major Air Forces of the World from WWI to the present day, this is a gold mine of color information that should be on any modelers favorite list.

And then.......

http://www.jpsmodell.de/dc/index.htm


This site is a companion to the first one I listed, but also shows how and when the colors covered on the first site were used on 3 views of the aircraft they were used on. This site also covers the camo colors used on Tanks, Ships and uniforms of the world.

As I said I don't have a set of the colors but basing your end product on one reference which is in question to start with doesn't strike me as something a man of your "knowledge" and letters would do..........
Merlin
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 06:43 AM UTC
Hi again Flypaper

While it's certainly not for me to defend John, it's obvious that you are jumping to far too many conclusions about how much research he's carried out.

Don Color is a very useful site - and our own Steffen Arndt has acheived fine results with JPS acrylic paints. But I'm sure you don't need warning about using on-line colour chips with extreme caution - they are so much at the mercy of computer operating system colour spaces, browsers, plus the limitations and set-up of monitors. Jens Popp himself includes a disclaimer to that effect.

All the best

Rowan
flypaper
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 07:53 AM UTC
I didnt jump to any conclusions, In the opening posts it was stated that he borrowed a copy of the Vitochart and worked off of that to produce his colors, which I questioned because there is so much more infomation around now. Question, would you want to repair your PC with info thats 10 years old?

And please, shoving his bonafides in my face like I was some child, Talking down to people only gets them back up in your face.

Rereading YOUR review of the paint shows you even had problem with some of the colors, I just agreed and asked if he couldnt come up with something better than Vitocharts dated information.

As far as JPS web site I stand by my statements that they are a gold mine of information. And if its not smart to use them as a reference then I guess the same would hold true gor any web based color information site!
Merlin
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 08:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

As far as JPS web site I stand by my statements that they are a gold mine of information. And if its not smart to use them as a reference then I guess the same would hold true gor any web based color information site!



Hi again

Err... well yes - every site obviously has to be used with the same caution, because exactly the same technical limitations apply. LOL!

To quote a few of the disclaimers from other sites:

"Please note that the digital color samples shown on this page offer approximations of the requested colors. Users concerned with accurate color matches are advised to make the final judgment on a physical sample."

"Please note that the paint chips only roughly reflect real shades due to the colour deviations introduced through printing, scanning, lossy image compression and computer screen presentation."

"The accompanying images should not be relied upon as an actual match for RLM colours due to a combination of processes and settings on your computer screen or printer. These variables include your video card, your monitor settings and the type and configuration of your printer.

In fact, the limitations of printing in process colours means that the exact tones of Luftwaffe colours cannot even be reproduced accurately in a conventional book. The only accurate way to present these colours is using paint samples."

But recognising the problems inherent in displaying colours accurately isn't to deny the value of such charts as very useful general guides. I certainly hope so - it's one of my long-term aims to include a series of paint charts on Aeroscale.

Flypaper, I began by thanking you for the extra info you provided, and I haven't changed my position. I'm looking forward to reading some of the books and mags you've mentioned if I can find them. But this thread has already gone way off topic, so let's agree to leave it at that, shall we?

All the best

Rowan
flypaper
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Posted: Monday, December 10, 2007 - 03:59 AM UTC
Fine, but you should take down the "comments on this review welcome" sign.

Before I go.........

..........Excellent to near perfect color chips CAN be Printed. It all has to do with cost. Most normal color mags for daily use are 4 color printings, but there is the ability to go up to 10 color printing (at least while I was still in the business), this is normally used in museum quality books that reproduce photos of famous works of art. So yes, near perfect color reproduction is possible going the printing route, but its the the bottom line which drives industry even one as small as ours.

Why research when you an use someone else's hard work ..........
Holdfast
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Posted: Monday, December 10, 2007 - 10:15 AM UTC
Basically find paints that you like and use them I like WEM colourcoats so I use them.
If we keep trying to find all the possible info that may or may not be out there we would wait a milennium, or two. There are still arguments over Luftwaffe RLM colours. My take on any of this colour stuff is; if you weren't there at the time then you can't give a difinative answer to any colour question. So I find a paint range that I like and use that.


Quoted Text

Hi Mal,

"Watch this space...." ;^)



Cool, I'll try and find some info on French Roundels................Jean Luc

Mal
flypaper
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Posted: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 04:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text



"Cool, I'll try and find some info on French Roundels................Jean Luc

Mal



with a bit of research........

Red=Humbrol Red 60 with a touch of 20 Crimson.
Blue= Humbrol Blue 89 with a touch of Blue 109 and a drop of Green 88, to give it the Grey tint that was carried by the thinners, (or leave out the Green 88 for a purer color.).if you can get it Molaks LMU9 Sky Blue is even closer.

These are the starting mixes and will go a way in giving you what you want.

Information is from DTU publishing house "Dewoitine D520", page 90, chapter LE CAMOUFLAGE.

TedMamere
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Posted: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 07:58 AM UTC
Hi Flypaper!

Do you know of a book about French WW2 camouflage? I have books about Luftwaffe and VVS camouflage and I know of others of the like (Italian) but French ones...

I would be interested to have one as I'm not a color specialist and every reference could be useful for me and probably others.

Is the article you mentionned in Replic the one in n°164 from April 2005 by Eric Deluy?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but remember... I'm French!

Jean-Luc
flypaper
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Posted: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 08:42 AM UTC
Hello Jean-Luc

My first suggestion would be the book, "Camouflage and Markings Nr 1"-"French Air Force 1938-1945" written by CJ Ehrengart, published in both English and French by Aero Editions, this is the same publisher who published the "AERO JOURNAL" magazine. This book also comes with a very good printed color chart.

My second recommendation is the DTU published "Dewoitine D520" soft covered book, although this is the history of the D520 there is an excellent section on the Colors and Camo used by the FAF during WWII. Nice touch in this book is the mixes for the Camo Colors.

The Replic articles ran in a multi part series during some of the issues during issues 70/80 much harder for me to get but should be a snap for you being your in France.

I've been collecting French WWII camo information and color matches for over 40 years, some are good some are crap, but like I stated earlier during the last 10 years some REALLY GOOD info has been put together and the veil is starting to lift from this mystery.

I'm never put off by question about my favorite subject........

Flypaper
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Posted: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 09:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm never put off by question about my favorite subject........



Hi again Flypaper!

Thanks for the infos. I'll see if I can find some of the references you've listed. Glad to see a French WW2 specialist found it's way to Aeroscale.

Jean-Luc
flypaper
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Posted: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 10:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'm never put off by question about my favorite subject........



Hi again Flypaper!

Thanks for the infos. I'll see if I can find some of the references you've listed. Glad to see a French WW2 specialist found it's way to Aeroscale.

Jean-Luc



Not a "specialist" just some one with a passion!

Flypaper.
Merlin
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Posted: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 10:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Not a "specialist" just some one with a passion!

Flypaper.



Hi again

Nicely said! The passion to learn from each other is why we're all here.

Please give us a normal name of some sort - even if it's not your real one! I just baulk at referring to someone as an insecticide!

All the best

Rowan
flypaper
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Posted: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 11:17 AM UTC
Dont think of it as an insectcide, it came about because of my collection of aviation mags, journals and books! My late wife gave it to me.....FLY(ing interest) PAPER (the collection)=Flypaper....it just kind of stuck.