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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Insight on German Tiger 1 modifications
Byrden
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 05:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Over In the MLynx tread there is a pic of an engine dangling over an 502s Tiger engine deck.
.....
Davids conclusion is straight forward late type engine (produced xx.xx.xx) so the Tiger could never have been Grey.
....
The track-hanger on the turret could be an upgrade
....
the square shape and „Dunkelgrau“ original base color of the BK square might be and indication of this being an earlier Grey Tiger upgraded and repainted during one of it’s inspection intervals. Maybe the turret was swapped … who knows ?
I believe I pointed out some other valid options here, not taken into consideration by David in his answers.



Yes, it's possible that this Tiger got a replacement turret. But the track cable on its side is arranged in a slightly different pattern to that of the grey Tigers delivered in February.
More important: it has the "flat" sprocket wheel introduced in April 1943.
And, what's utterly convincing: its front mudflap is raised, and we can see the edge of the glacis plate, and it does not have the "undercut" of the first 60 or so plates.

This is not one of the February Tigers. Given the supply dates of Tigers to 502, this one was finished after the introduction of Dunkelgelb.

David


Bozothenutter
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 05:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Dark Gray in Africa. Dust sand rocks not withstanding, this is a dark color.



Not scientific or definitive for that matter but, here's a tropen painted Tiger I that we know was RAL 8000/RAL 7008.

Tiger 142's demise was well documented by Life magazine in living color. We know she was painted in early tropen colors as well as having dark gray Feifels and a RAL 8020 tool box.

Here you see the real deal and the contrasting colors.





The model



Same shot in B/W



G



that last conversion, was that grayscale, pan-, or orthochromatic?
chnoone
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 07:26 AM UTC
Hey David

here we go ...

1. They are more reliable researchers, in just about everybody's opinion. They use original sources only.
... is that so ? .... so all other research is there for less reliable ? In just about everybody's option. .... Since the others also use non-original sources (what ever that might be ?)

2. You a right I should have mentioned I was referring to "Tigers in combat III" to be more precise.

3. HM 181 / 18.02.1943 is the order to change from "Dunkelgrau" to "Dunkelgelb" as base color, camo (Green + Brown) to be applied by the troops:

H. M. 1943, Nr. 181
181. Anstrich des Heeresgeräts.
1. Gerätanstrich.
An Stelle des bisherigen Gerätanstrichs, dunkelgrau- dunkelbraun, der für Kriegsdauer in einfarbig dunkelgrau abgeändert worden ist, sowie an Stelle des Gerätanstrichs braun-grau für die Truppen in Afrika und auf Kreta, tritt für Großgerät mit sofortiger Wirkung der Anstrich
dunkelgelb nach Muster.
Nummer der RAL-Farbtonkarte für dieses dunkelgelb wird später festgesetzt. Muster sind beim Heereswaffenamt Wa J Rü (W u G 1/V), Berlin W 15, Sächsischestr. 8, aufzufordern.
Für Kleingerät, das in Fahrzeugen mitgeführt wird (z. B. Nachrichtengerät, Vorratkasten, Werkzeugkasten, Kasten und Koffer des Veterinärgeräts, Aktenkasten) ist der bisherige Anstrich bis auf weiteres beizubehalten.
Für den Anstrich ist zu verwenden:
P-Farbe nach TL 6321 für Panzerkampfwagen,
W-Farbe nach TL 6320 für Funk- und Nachrichtengerät,
Deckfarbe nach TL 6337 für Gerät aus Magnesiumlegierungen (z. B. Elektronräder an Geschützen),
im Übrigen Kunstharzfarbe nach TL 6317 B. Entgegenstehende Bestimmungen treten außer Kraft.

2. Tarnanstrich. Die Tarnung des Geräts durch Auftragen entsprechender Farben nach den jeweiligen Feldverhältnissen ist Sache der Truppen. Hierzu sind von den Truppen Tarnpasten (3) mitzuführen in folgenden Farben:
olivgrün nach Farbtonkarte des R. L. M. für Tarnfarben (Gebäude- und Bodentarnung),
rotbraun, RAL 8017,
dunkelgelb nach Muster wie in Ziffer 1.

3. Die Tarnpasten nach Ziffer 2 werden an die Truppen im Nachschubwege abgegeben. Zur Berechnung der Gesamtmenge für jede Einheit gelten folgende Pauschalsätze: ...
Abgabe der Tarnpasten erfolgt in Packgefäßen von 2 und 20 kg. Die Gesamtmenge je Einheit ist auf eine durch 2 teilbare Zahl abzurunden, bei Mengen über 20 kg sind zunächst Packgefäße von 20 kg, für den Rest solche von 2 kg anzusetzen.
Es muss im Hinblick auf die bestehende Rohstoff, Fertigungs- und Transportlage den Truppen zur Pflicht gemacht werden, mit Farbe und Tarnpasten sorgsam umzugehen und den Verbrauch auf das dringend Notwendige zu beschränken.

4. In welchen Formen die Tarnpasten aufzutragen sind, wird dem Ermessen der Truppen überlassen. Es wird meistens darauf ankommen, die Fläche eines Geräts (Fahrzeugs) durch verschiedene Farben für die Sicht zu zerteilen.
Im allgemeinen hat sich das Auftragen in größeren Farbflecken unter Vermeidung jeder Regelmäßigkeit (»wolkenartig«) bewährt.
Die Tarnpasten sind im Anlieferungszustand oder nach Zugabe von Wasser oder Treibstoff zu verwenden. Sie können außer mit Pinsel auch mit Behelfsmitteln (Bürsten, Lappen) aufgetragen werden und sind nach kurzer Zeit trocken. Sie eignen sich auch zum Tarnen von Wagenplanen.
Soweit eine Beseitigung aufgetragener Tarnpasten notwendig ist, kann sie mit Treibstoff vorgenommen werden.

5. Die Wintertarnung (in schneebedecktem Gelände) besteht bis auf weiteres in weißem Anstrich mit Emulsionsfarbe nach TL 6345. Alles Gerät, das bis Ende Februar 1943 an die Feldtruppen abgegeben wird, ist vor Absendung mit diesem Anstrich zu versehen.
Einführung weisser Tarnpaste zur Wintertarnung wird später angeordnet.

6. Übergangsbestimmungen.
a) Gerät in Neufertigung, das etwa schon den bisherigen Anstrich erhalten hat, ist vor Ablieferung nach Ziffer 1 umzustreichen oder - Gerat aus Webstoff - umzufärben.
b) Gerät in den Beständen ist nur noch mit Anstrich oder Färbung nach Ziffer 1 abzugeben. Dieses Gerät ist außerdem mit weißer Emulsionsfarbe zu überstreichen, soweit es bis Ende Februar 1943 abgesendet wird (5).
c) Bei den Feldtruppen wird der Anstrich des dort bereits vorhandenen Geräts (dunkelgrau oder - bei Truppen in Afrika und auf Kreta – braun-grau) nicht geändert. Notwendige Tarnung ist mit Tarnpaste (2 bis 4) durchzuführen.
d) Bei den Ersatz- und Besatzungstruppen ist das Gerät mit neuem Anstrich nach 1 zu versehen. Die hierzu erforderliche Farbe (1 Abs. 4) sowie die zustehende Tarnpaste (2, 3) ist von den Truppenteilen im Nachschubwege anzufordern. Umfärben von Wagenplanen muss jedoch mit Tarnpaste erfolgen.
O. K. H. (Ch H Rüst u. BdE), 18.2.43 - 72/88/16 - In. 2 (V)

OKW WA J Rü 6/VIII / 19.08.1944 is the only order I'm aware of which orders camo to be applied in factory by the producer:

H. V. 1945, Nr. 52
52. Anstrich des Heeresgeräts. Neufertigung

1. Das Heeresgerät der Neufertigung wird, soweit ein Anstrich noch zugelassen ist, an Stelle des Gelbanstriches (RAL 7028) mit einem Grünanstrich versehen.
Für den Farbton ist maßgebend die RAL-Farbtonkarte 6003, Anstrichstoffe wie bisher.
2. Welche Geräte, abweichend von den Angaben in den Zeichnungen und Gerat- Lieferbedingungen, noch einen Anstrich erhakten, ist aus den neuen Anstrichvorschriften ersichtlich, die allen H Abn-Dienststellen Okt. 44 zugegangen sind.
3. Geräte, für die entsprechend dieser Anstrichvorschrift in der Neufertigung ein Buntfarben-Tarnanstrich vorgesehen ist, sind solange grün zu streichen, bis das entsprechende „Tarnbild“ als Vorlage zur Verfügung steht. Die Tarnbilder werden den Firmen nach Fertigstellung durch die Beschaffungsabteilungen des Heereswaffenamtes zugeleitet.
4. Die Farbtone für den Buntfarben-Tarnanstrich sind: Grün RAL 6003
Braun RAL 8017 } RAL-Farbtonregister 840 R
Gelb RAL 7028 Ausgabe 1944
Für den Buntanstrich werden sie flächenmässig in ungefähr gleichen Mengen benötigt.
5. Vorhandene Bestände an gelber Farbe (Farbton RAL 7028) sind für folgende Zwecke aufzubrauchen:
a) für Kleingerät, soweit es sich nicht um Gerät handelt, das der Mann ständig bei sich trägt,
b) für Geräte, die nur im Heimatkriegsgebiet eingesetzt werden, c) für den gelben Anteil des Buntfarben-Tarnanstrichs.
In Zweifelsfällen zu a) und b) ist über die Heeres-Abnahme-Dienststellen Entscheidung einzuholen.
Die Heeres-Abn-Dienststellen haben bis zur Herbeiführung der Entscheidung die Weiterverwendung der gelben Farbe zu tolerieren, auch für Großgeräte

.... is there an HM or OKW WA (or similar) previous to HM 181 instructing Henschel to apply the "Tropen" camo already at the factory ?

3. If you're saying that the Bovington Tiger was grey when it rolled out of the factory
.... You mentioned that yourself in an article that grey color was found after the gun mantlet was removed and it had to be applied prior to the installation of the gun mantlet. Wegmann delivered their turrets already painted in the ordered base coat ... any other camo came on top ... so if HM 181 was obeyed then all camo was to be applied by the troops.
So why would Henschel act otherwise ? They would deliver in one uniform color ... Dunkelgrau and later Dunkelgelb.
I don't believe a manufacturer would divert from this order, trouble with the WA and no reimbursement. There would have to be a change order to their existing contract ... issued by whom ?
Do you know of any such document by chance ? Because this is an "original" source which clearly only mentions the use of .... " Dunkelgrau for the duration of the war and Braun-Grau for Africa and Crete both to be replaced by Dunkelgelb ... specific RAL# (Dunkelgelb) to be specified at a later date".
... no other RAL # / is mentioned here.
My conclusion is that only orders for Dunkelgrau, camo for Africa and for the island of Crete were in existence/use and were all replaced by Dunkelgelb.

5. This is not one of the February Tigers. Given the supply dates of Tigers to 502, this one was finished after the introduction of Dunkelgelb.
..... do you know on which day/date Henschel started apply Dunkelgelb as to HM 181 ? I don't.

Reminder:

In November, 2011, after reviewing the draft copy of my paper on the effects of the Royal Air Force’s October 22/23, 1943 fire bombing of the City of Kassel on Tiger 1 tank production, the late Mr.Tom Jentz, despite his illness, forwarded his comments and suggestions. The following are some
of his comments :
“It was war time. The idea was to get tanks out the factory door as quick as possible”
“Henschel didn’t care what a Tiger tank looked like. They didn’t care what mods they had. All they cared about was getting an assembled tank passed by the inspectors and getting paid for it”.
“The assembly workers would assemble a vehicle with whatever was on hand and whatever was most easily accessible. The workers didn’t care if they put on regular wheels or steel wheels. It was all the same to them and no one was checking off what mods were going on”.

Cheers
Christopher
Byrden
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 10:21 AM UTC
Thank you, that's helpful.

Regarding Schneider and his "Combat" books. I do not consider them to be as reliable sources as the Doyle and Jentz book.

My reason is: I analysed hundreds of photos of Tigers from s.Pz.Abt. 501 in Tunisia. As a result I can say that some errors exist in Schneider's chapter about that unit. Including:

- He states that Tiger 121 was the first loss, but it was really Tiger 122
- He gives the wrong date for the loss of Tiger 231
- He identifies a 2 company Tiger photo as 1 company
- He identifies a photo of Tiger 122 as 142
- He states that the turret must be lifted off in order to replace a broken torsion bar
- He numbers the company command Tigers "100" and "200". In fact they were "11" and "21"
- His table of organisation for February 1943 has multiple errors

Doyle and Jentz do not make such mistakes because they don't speculate. e.g. they would rather not state a Tiger's number than guess it.

I cannot entirely trust Schneider's statements about paint colours.

David
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 10:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I did it my way ....






Tamiyas old Tiger I from the previous millenium ...



M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 10:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thank you, that's helpful.

Regarding Schneider and his "Combat" books. I do not consider them to be as reliable sources as the Doyle and Jentz book.

My reason is: I analysed hundreds of photos of Tigers from s.Pz.Abt. 501 in Tunisia. As a result I can say that some errors exist in Schneider's chapter about that unit. Including:

- He states that Tiger 121 was the first loss, but it was really Tiger 122
- He gives the wrong date for the loss of Tiger 231
- He identifies a 2 company Tiger photo as 1 company
- He identifies a photo of Tiger 122 as 142
- He states that the turret must be lifted off in order to replace a broken torsion bar
- He numbers the company command Tigers "100" and "200". In fact they were "11" and "21"
- His table of organisation for February 1943 has multiple errors

Doyle and Jentz do not make such mistakes because they don't speculate. e.g. they would rather not state a Tiger's number than guess it.

I cannot entirely trust Schneider's statements about paint colours.

David



Thank You, David...

OK, now my Mom's Onkel Ludwig served in Pz.Kpfw.IVs during the entire war; he and his fellow Crew Members looked on in disdain when an adjacent unit of Tigers had moved up in France, late Spring, 1944... Fully HALF of them had been disabled by mechanical problems, mostly owing to their complexity and "poor design". (Onkel Ludwig's words, not mine)

One can't go 100% by what contemporary authors say. One CAN to some degree, and with some caution, go by what actual veteran Crews of armored vehicles and units have to say.

The same can be said about color; I've seen modelers DELIBERATELY add BLUE to their Panzergrau, because they had a bad photograph in front of them at the time. I showed Onkel Ludwig a couple of my antediluvian TAMIYA 1/35 German vehicles of that long-ago era. I had done one of them in a Dark Gray (PACTRA Hot Rod Primer), and the other, also in the same Dark Gray, but with BLUE added to the Dark Gray, BECAUSE I had read an article in "SCALE MODELER Magazine", stating that "Panzer Gray had a distinct Bluish-cast to it". The model in the magazine was TAMIYA's old Panzer II F/G, and it was painted in a color that was ALMOST POWDER-BLUE!!! "Uh-UH!", I said to myself...

Hm! What to do..?

Skeptic that I was, (and still am), I showed both models to Onkel Ludwig, when he came from Germany to visit us in Queens, New York, and I asked him to choose the model which seemed to be a more "correct" color to him. Well, he pointed to the one which hadn't had any "BLUE" added to the Dark Gray paint... He said:

"PANZERGRAU IST PANZERGRAU, nicht PANZERBLAU..."

-Onkel Ludwig, Summer, 1972...

As I said earlier, (and was promptly "shot-down"), color is subjective, at best... So match your "skies" all you want to...
Armorsmith
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 10:55 AM UTC
While I find this an interesting academic debate, in the end it's your model. Build it however you want.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 11:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

While I find this an interesting academic debate, in the end it's your model. Build it however you want.



BRAVO!!!
AgentG
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 11:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Dark Gray in Africa. Dust sand rocks not withstanding, this is a dark color.



Not scientific or definitive for that matter but, here's a tropen painted Tiger I that we know was RAL 8000/RAL 7008.

Tiger 142's demise was well documented by Life magazine in living color. We know she was painted in early tropen colors as well as having dark gray Feifels and a RAL 8020 tool box.

Here you see the real deal and the contrasting colors.





The model



Same shot in B/W



G



that last conversion, was that grayscale, pan-, or orthochromatic?




I have no clue which it is.

G
Byrden
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 12:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text


One can't go 100% by what contemporary authors say. One CAN to some degree, and with some caution, go by what actual veteran Crews of armored vehicles and units have to say.



I'm not sure what your point is. Nobody's quoted any veterans in this thread.

David
Byrden
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 12:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

While I find this an interesting academic debate, in the end it's your model. Build it however you want.



Nobody has been telling chnoone how to paint his model.

He asked:

"Tiger 1 in "Panzergrau".... what unit .... time period"

The thread has been about answering that question.

David
Armorsmith
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 12:22 PM UTC
Fair enough David but what this debate demonstrates is that even among experts there is no agreement on the interpretation of wartime photos be they color or BW. Additionally, despite official orders and other documentation, there is still the question of how closely they were followed. And, his question regarding color came about as a result of his research into what color his Tiger should be so my comment was not entirely off the mark.
brekinapez
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 01:03 PM UTC
Anyone who knows color should know that gray will often take on a caste of color from its environment based on the undertones used in its formulation. There are neutral (no real undertones), warm (brown, red, yellow), and cool (blue, purple, green) grays. When natural light hits it, the undertone gets intensified by its counterpart in the rays of light. So, dark gray being a cool gray using a blue undertone, the blue light from the sky acts like chemical MSG and kicks up that blue a notch. Likewise with things like hair or feathers; ever noticed the blue sheen on raven-haired people and the black bird species?

So, I'm not totally against people adding a hint of blue to replicate that look if they want, but for me it would depend on how the base was depicted. Near a stand of trees I will, because vegetation tends to bounce bluer light while the ground absorbs the red. In a street scene near a red brick wall I would not expect blue.
chnoone
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Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2019 - 05:31 AM UTC
Hey Guys !

I'm testing various standard color available .... but my tendency does go towards the color pic ... a lighter-blueish tone.
Doing modern AFVs mostly for the last 15+ years I always mix the CARC Green /Tan matching the photo reference I use, and I only use it once on a model.
So all my finished models always have a slightly different appearance ... enhanced by the "weathering" applied. Replacement items like fenders or turret bins on a M1 will get a "newer" tone mixed from the basic Green color used.
But uni-color vehicles modern or WW2 are actually much more of a challenge (weathering) then the camo painted ones.
I don't do "color modulation" stuff ... to artistic and unrealistic for my taste ... I want to replicate as close as possible. So good photos Color or BW are still very essential in all my projects.

Cheers
Christopher
Bravo1102
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Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2019 - 06:12 AM UTC
Many color pictures from 70 years ago have faded. What hue fades first? Reds and yellows. RGB screens use Red and green to simulate those colors. So with the yellow and red faded the photo will appear much more blue than it should.

Therefore you don't use blue to color correct blue. You're better off using fleshtones by adding orange to the way overly pink people in the grey tank photo.

I am speaking as someone who spends a lot of time doing color adjustments. Sky is way too variable with blue and grey. You're only playing with half the color spectrum.

Also look at the dirt. It's too monochromatic.

As for slavishly following color photography fir modern tank colors? I'd often stand next to my tank after a road match, trace my finger across the fender and see several tints of green depending on my greasy my finger was, how thick the coats of dust had overlapped one another and a dozen other things.



My old M48 had oxide red air cleaners, light green fenders over sand and earth yellow MERDC with spot touch ups in brown OD and a grey OD searchlight. I know a color photo of it would prompt someone to take out the green because the fenders couldn't be green! And the olive drab has to be field drab brown OD didn't exist in 1988! And so on.
wedgetail53
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Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2019 - 01:00 PM UTC
Why is it that there are always people out there who feel that they just have to challenge those with the most knowledge on a particular subject, such as Tiger tanks? I for one accept that David is the expert for the simple reason that I could not possibly do the same amount of research and investigation as he has done and still find time for building kits.

This topic is turning into a gabfest simply because some people don't know when to give up (not you, David)!

Regards

Rob
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2019 - 01:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

While I find this an interesting academic debate, in the end it's your model. Build it however you want.



Nobody has been telling chnoone how to paint his model.

He asked:

"Tiger 1 in "Panzergrau".... what unit .... time period"

The thread has been about answering that question.

David



There were several people in this thread that referred to "Panzergrau", "Panzergelb" and the other various "Afrika" colors.

I just quoted a German WWII VETERAN Panzer Crewman in reference to "PANZERGRAU", or are you completely ignoring what I just posted..? If you read my post, AND between the lines, you'll REALIZE that I was talking about "Panzergrau", and how modelers will ofttimes refer to a BAD PHOTOGRAPH of ANY military vehicle and mix up the "wrong" color, i.e "PANZERBLAU", which never existed, except in the minds of some people. I wrote about the erroneous mention of a "distinct BLUISH cast to PANZERGRAU", in a now long-defunct modeling magazine.

"PERCEPTION of COLOR" was my point... That's all, and NOTHING else.

NOWHERE did I mention anything about what the number of a certain tank was, or wasn't...

PS- I am CERTAINLY no TIGER "expert", nor will I ever claim to be. Mr. Byrden has that honor, and my hat is off to him. But when it comes to COLOR specifically, ALL BETS ARE OFF. ESPECIALLY, if one is going to try to match a color to an old, faded and/or discolored photograph that is over 75 years old...
RLlockie
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Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2019 - 05:55 PM UTC
I’m not hugely sure that ‘Panzergrau’ ever existed either, come to that. Wasn’t 7021 called Dunkelgrau?

And is all the SHOUTING really necessary in a serious discussion?
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2019 - 08:16 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I’m not hugely sure that ‘Panzergrau’ ever existed either, come to that. Wasn’t 7021 called Dunkelgrau?

And is all the SHOUTING really necessary in a serious discussion?



7021 Dunkelgrau IS in all likelihood the "proper" reference to "Panzergrau". I used the "Panzergrau" term for familiarity's sake only, if we're going to split hairs. As to "SHOUTING", if you are referring to my use of "CAPS" in my rhetoric, my "CAPS" are simply used for EMPHASIS. If you don't like my "style" of posting, don't read my posts... Simple as that...
Bravo1102
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Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2019 - 09:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text

color and SHOUTING



I possess an amazing perception of color. Or so my ophthalmologist tells me.

I have good instinct for color and know how to play with color so many different ways in Photoshop. With the right tools one can get within the ball park in an old photo. I'm not talking exact hues of various RAL or FS numbers but brown versus grey and even catch the occasional tint like that elusive blue cast to Panzer grey. That's lighting as was said before. But one can tell that particular dark grey from the tropical browns even in black and white. And especially in color. Mono blue with faded pinkish faces is not true color. Where's the orange? Add it and poof grey becomes brown.

But precise tone, tint or shade of said color to please so many model builders who want an exact color? All bets are off.

Hey wait, why not SHOUT? Because HTML provides us with other options for emphasis like "i" and "b" commands for italic and bold. That's all the HTML I know. Because I'm good with written language but HTML is just too much gibberish for me.

Angels dancing on pinheads, eyes glaze over and I'm out cold.

(in other words, this has become a gabfest. We might as well be take up debating the number of angels dancing on pinheads at this point)
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2019 - 10:18 PM UTC
Which manufacturer and product number of pins did you have in mind? The "El Cheapo" ones that hide in new shirts, the type where you manage to remove all but one? The regular type used by hobby tailors/seamstresses? Stainless or plain iron?
Hardened? Chrome plated?
Which type of angels, archangels or the average Joe type?
Jeez, there is so many variables so we have to narrow it down before we can have a proper discussion .....

/ Robin
M4A1Sherman
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Joined: May 02, 2013
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Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 12:01 AM UTC

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color and SHOUTING



I possess an amazing perception of color. Or so my ophthalmologist tells me.

I have good instinct for color and know how to play with color so many different ways in Photoshop. With the right tools one can get within the ball park in an old photo. I'm not talking exact hues of various RAL or FS numbers but brown versus grey and even catch the occasional tint like that elusive blue cast to Panzer grey. That's lighting as was said before. But one can tell that particular dark grey from the tropical browns even in black and white. And especially in color. Mono blue with faded pinkish faces is not true color. Where's the orange? Add it and poof grey becomes brown.

But precise tone, tint or shade of said color to please so many model builders who want an exact color? All bets are off.

Hey wait, why not SHOUT? Because HTML provides us with other options for emphasis like "i" and "b" commands for italic and bold. That's all the HTML I know. Because I'm good with written language but HTML is just too much gibberish for me.

Angels dancing on pinheads, eyes glaze over and I'm out cold.

(in other words, this has become a gabfest. We might as well be take up debating the number of angels dancing on pinheads at this point)



I'm not going to get into a "counting angels on pinheads" contest- Too many of 'em to count...

HTMLs bore the P*SS out of me, so S***W THAT!!!

If people think that I'm an insane CLOWN, so be it. I'm WAAAAY past caring if they DON'T LIKE MY USAGE OF "CAPS", so I'm going keep typing the way I've BEEN typing for the last 60 years or so...
M4A1Sherman
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Joined: May 02, 2013
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Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 12:12 AM UTC

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Dark Gray in Africa. Dust sand rocks not withstanding, this is a dark color.



Not scientific or definitive for that matter but, here's a tropen painted Tiger I that we know was RAL 8000/RAL 7008.

Tiger 142's demise was well documented by Life magazine in living color. We know she was painted in early tropen colors as well as having dark gray Feifels and a RAL 8020 tool box.

Here you see the real deal and the contrasting colors.





The model



Same shot in B/W



G



that last conversion, was that grayscale, pan-, or orthochromatic?



It was orthodontic with a side trip to fix macular-degeneration of the gonads' frying pan... 6000 ASA with an F/stop of abcdefg who do you see, not me...
Bravo1102
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Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,476 posts
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Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 01:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


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color and SHOUTING



I possess an amazing perception of color. Or so my ophthalmologist tells me.

I have good instinct for color and know how to play with color so many different ways in Photoshop. With the right tools one can get within the ball park in an old photo. I'm not talking exact hues of various RAL or FS numbers but brown versus grey and even catch the occasional tint like that elusive blue cast to Panzer grey. That's lighting as was said before. But one can tell that particular dark grey from the tropical browns even in black and white. And especially in color. Mono blue with faded pinkish faces is not true color. Where's the orange? Add it and poof grey becomes brown.

But precise tone, tint or shade of said color to please so many model builders who want an exact color? All bets are off.

Hey wait, why not SHOUT? Because HTML provides us with other options for emphasis like "i" and "b" commands for italic and bold. That's all the HTML I know. Because I'm good with written language but HTML is just too much gibberish for me.

Angels dancing on pinheads, eyes glaze over and I'm out cold.

(in other words, this has become a gabfest. We might as well be take up debating the number of angels dancing on pinheads at this point)



I'm not going to get into a "counting angels on pinheads" contest- Too many of 'em to count...

HTMLs bore the P*SS out of me, so S***W THAT!!!

If people think that I'm an insane CLOWN, so be it. I'm WAAAAY past caring if they DON'T LIKE MY USAGE OF "CAPS", so I'm going keep typing the way I've BEEN typing for the last 60 years or so...



Spoken like a true curmudgeon sir!


And now for an historical aside: At the height of the scholastic debates in the Middle Ages, monks were debating all kinds of holy subjects they really could have no personal knowledge of. One disgusted scholar said the debates had become so petty and foolish it was like debating the number of Angels that could dance on the head of a pin. Not only is it meaningless but the answer can never be truly known.

Some things are documented and can be proven and others remain beyond final determination.
chnoone
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Joined: January 01, 2009
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Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 08:38 AM UTC

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Why is it that there are always people out there who feel that they just have to challenge those with the most knowledge on a particular subject, such as Tiger tanks? I for one accept that David is the expert for the simple reason that I could not possibly do the same amount of research and investigation as he has done and still find time for building kits.

This topic is turning into a gabfest simply because some people don't know when to give up (not you, David)!

Regards

Rob



Hey Rob,

I would like to clarify nobody has to give up anything here …. especially not his option on this subject. Which you have not contributed to in any way. So don’t try turning this into a „Witch-hunt“ pro / con David …. we are discussing a topic and NOT peoples characters and/or personalities. And this is also not a Grand-tribunal on everything Davis has ever said or written …. Have I made my clear ?

That said here's what I have gathered/concluded :

1. A color picture of a Tiger 1 in the spring of 1943 in an overall „Grey“ coating, assigned to the 13. Pz.-company GD.
There are two other photos, around the same time period of two Tigers in existence , each one also in a „Grey“ coating.
These two are to be expected to be „Dunkelgrau“ belonging to the 502.

All the contributions and alteration are quite interesting in combination with the article I linked in my entry.
But all mentioned options remain speculative …. why ? Because the shown picture is the one which was published like that in 1943.
Would there be a reason to alter it’s appearance (even without Photoshop available) to simulate a Grey tone ?
Some hidden agenda maybe ? Other colors then RAL 7021 could’t be shown to the public ?
Or is there the most obvious option the closest to the truth ? …. What you see is what you got ?

Of course this would put a dent in Davids theory of his headcount of only 25 Tiger in Grey. So what ? … all he has to do is add one more to his count …. if convinced.

2. HM 1943 181 clearly states a number of interesting aspects:

A „Mitteilung“ translates into „Announcement“, today „Letter of Intend“ not an order, just the announcement that the WH has decided to change the base-color of all equipment from Dunkelgrau“ to „Dunkelgelb“ in the coming future.

All camo colors, only the ones mentioned Green + Braun, are to be applied by the troops.
This clearly excludes any camo works done in the factory …. even previously … why ? They didn’t have to delete/mention works which were never introduced / existed in their instructions previously.
„Dunkelgrau“ was the only base-color in use till then.
The factories would then deliver equipment only in the new base-color in the future.

The RAL# for the new „Dunkelgelb“ would be announce at a later time, no indication when.

The letter doesn’t instruct the manufactures to stop and drop everything till they, the WH, have concluded on which RAL #color is their final choice.

Also explicitly mentioned is the cancelations of the Braun-Grey (Tropen camo ?) for the troops in Africa and Crete immediately. Russia is not mentioned in the context … indicating that Tropen-camo was not intended for use in the Russian theater!
How that was going you work without being notified which RAL# „Dunkelgelb“ to use instead is anyones guess.

Equipment in use is not to be repainted … "vorhandenen Geräts (dunkelgrau oder - bei Truppen in Afrika und auf Kreta – braun-grau) nicht geändert. Notwendige Tarnung ist mit Tarnpaste (2 bis 4) durchzuführen."
Again braun-gray only for troops in Africa and Crete, Dunkelgrau is considered the standard color for all the rest.

What I can’t identify looking at this document is any hint to David’s theory that the „Tropen-camo“ ever was applied at the Henschel factory till then.
The introduction to apply camo to all vehicles, the explicit mention of Africa and Crete having other colors order than Dunkelgrau previously clearly shows the specific diversion into two war theaters …. Russia being designated as „Dunkelgrau“.

The question if Henschel might not have followed orders to the letter I would clearly say NO.
Why?
Orders are turn into contracts and the German contractual system, even today, is a very precise Scope of Work documentation as the basis to any (Industrial) contract.
The Anglo-British approach is more of a „Functional description“ of the works, Germans SOWs are very precise right down to the last nail in size/material/quantity/time (a lot of pages !)
Any alteration will result in a change-order, taking effect only when signed … until then work continues as agreed …. or the interruption will be charged.
So looking at HM 1943 181 as what it is, Letter of Intend, nothing would have changed the ongoing production for a number of logical reasons:

HM 1943 181 gives us some answers …. even „Dunkelgrau“ delivered equipment after 18.02.1943 will be repainted by the troops.
Notwendige Tarnung ist mit Tarnpaste (2 bis 4) durchzuführen

Henschel, on the date HM 1943 181 was released, couldn’t be instructed which „Dunkelgelb to use, later availability is another factor.
Nummer der RAL-Farbtonkarte für dieses dunkelgelb wird später festgesetzt.


H. V. 1945, Nr. 52
52. Anstrich des Heeresgeräts. Neufertigung …. on the other hand is a „Verordnung“ …. this IS an Order

2. Welche Geräte, abweichend von den Angaben in den Zeichnungen und Gerat- Lieferbedingungen, noch einen Anstrich erhalten, ist aus den neuen Anstrichvorschriften ersichtlich, die allen H Abn-Dienststellen Okt. 44 zugegangen sind.

Gerät- Lieferbedingungen, …. ist the Keyword here …. the contractual delivery agreement.
The importance being …. an instruction to follow this order and proceed accordingly within contractual delivery agreement.
Meaning … the application of the „Buntfarbenanstrich" in the productions cycle … the equipment is to be handed over for acceptance in this specification only.

When all was set and in place at the Henschel factory the Tiger II’s rolled off the production line in „Ambush-camo“.

A decisive piece of evidence ….. while HM 1943 181 didn’t have to be issued as an order, the change of the base color was „cost-neutral“ …. H. V. 1945, Nr. 52 is a change order to Henschel’s existing SOW …. additional work = additional costs.

And that’s the reason Henschel didn’t do anything else but follow orders and contractual agreements.
So again … NO … I don’t believe Henschel disobeyed orders, because we’re talking business here …. and Henschel couldn't care less which color the WH wanted applied.
In consequence this would mean the Tropen-camo for the Tiger 1 was therefor applied by the troops.

I don’t see any of these important factors being reflected in David’s theory …. that’s why I don’t concur with just looking at pictures alone is will produce the deceive answers to our discussion ….. but neither will mine.

Cheers
Christopher